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I guess my elders should be indicted for Child Abuse

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I can see that. I was thinking of buying a mustard tiger shirt.





BAAAAAAAM!

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Post #121   9/17/14 12:08:05PM   

JoeWarren33

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Going to start season 8 tonight of TPB!!!

Post #122   9/17/14 12:28:15PM   

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Posted by george112


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Svartorm

Lot of ground covered, but just wanted to point something out.

Why would people rather he use a hand than a switch?

A switch can't physically harm you, other than the superficial because it has no mass.

An open hand on a 4 year olds ass could break his pelvis, dislocate a hip, or even break his back. You're talking about a giant of a man here. The switch was 100% safer for that child than a spanking.



I don't think people would be any less upset if he smacked him in the balls, or broke his hip. I would bet a doctor would report that as well. It may be that, if you are unable to discipline your child through corporal punishment in a manner which will not be reported by a physician as child abuse, you should consider alternatives.

you missed the point of this post



Also for the record, I am not defending Peterson.

All I am doing is not letting the media influence my opinion of what happened.

I have said he took it overboard with the switch. that much is clear and easy to understand. He was wrong for that and will pay the price eventually

Now what i am not doing is painting this guy out to be a child beater UNTIL ALL THE FACTS COME OUT AND THERE IS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. I am not going to rely on reports that could have possibly been written by people with the same mindset as Shawn. CLEARLY there is a bias there if that were the case

Like i have already said numerous times, if this guy has an abusive history what makes this time the time all this shit starts coming out about how he is abusive? Why was he allowed to see his kids in the first place? Why was he able to be alone with his kids?

See where I am going with this?




Could you explain what you see as the difference between "going overboard with the switch" and child abuse?

My guess is the reason stuff from the past is coming out now is because people are looking a lot harder now than they were before. Not that uncommon, or nefarious. When someone comes under scrutiny, things that were ignored before often get another look.

And while I admire your attempt to not be swayed by the media, in reality you are doing so out of your own bias. Which is fine. There is no such thing as human objectivity. Everyone sees the world through the lens of their life. You are obviously predisposed in one direction, others are obviously predisposed in another.

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Post #123   9/17/14 12:42:51PM   

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Posted by JoeWarren33

Going to start season 8 tonight of TPB!!!



Season is incredible!!!

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Post #124   9/17/14 1:04:00PM   

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Vikings reverse decision, Peterson benched for this weekends game.

Post #125   9/17/14 1:04:06PM   

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Posted by ncordless


Posted by george112


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Svartorm

Lot of ground covered, but just wanted to point something out.

Why would people rather he use a hand than a switch?

A switch can't physically harm you, other than the superficial because it has no mass.

An open hand on a 4 year olds ass could break his pelvis, dislocate a hip, or even break his back. You're talking about a giant of a man here. The switch was 100% safer for that child than a spanking.



I don't think people would be any less upset if he smacked him in the balls, or broke his hip. I would bet a doctor would report that as well. It may be that, if you are unable to discipline your child through corporal punishment in a manner which will not be reported by a physician as child abuse, you should consider alternatives.

you missed the point of this post



Also for the record, I am not defending Peterson.

All I am doing is not letting the media influence my opinion of what happened.

I have said he took it overboard with the switch. that much is clear and easy to understand. He was wrong for that and will pay the price eventually

Now what i am not doing is painting this guy out to be a child beater UNTIL ALL THE FACTS COME OUT AND THERE IS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. I am not going to rely on reports that could have possibly been written by people with the same mindset as Shawn. CLEARLY there is a bias there if that were the case

Like i have already said numerous times, if this guy has an abusive history what makes this time the time all this shit starts coming out about how he is abusive? Why was he allowed to see his kids in the first place? Why was he able to be alone with his kids?

See where I am going with this?




Could you explain what you see as the difference between "going overboard with the switch" and child abuse?

My guess is the reason stuff from the past is coming out now is because people are looking a lot harder now than they were before. Not that uncommon, or nefarious. When someone comes under scrutiny, things that were ignored before often get another look.

And while I admire your attempt to not be swayed by the media, in reality you are doing so out of your own bias. Which is fine. There is no such thing as human objectivity. Everyone sees the world through the lens of their life. You are obviously predisposed in one direction, others are obviously predisposed in another.




Your analogy about when things come to light under more scrutiny doesn't really make sense as what has come to light is the exact same thing he is being crucified for now. That being child abuse. Are you implying that child abuse THEN wasn't as big of a deal as NOW?

Also, ignoring the media has nothing to do with bias. It is no secret that the media by design in todays society is meant to make people think a certain way. If that wasn't the case you wouldn't have news channels always accusing the other of taking the side of democrats/republicans. It is all political and you as well as myself know that. However, that is a whole different discussion which this site prohibits me from going into. That is fine though.

Now back to your original question.

What is the difference between "going overboard with a switch" and child abuse. Ill tell you the distinction between the two that I THOUGHT was clearly obvious

Scenario 1 (Child Abuse)

IF Peterson was hitting his child with the switch for no apparent reason AND had the INTENTION of causing lasting damage THIS instance is child abuse. In layman's terms, if Adrian was making a sport/hobby out of hitting his children with switches, then yes absolutely child abuse.

Scenario 2 (Arguable Child Abuse)

IF Peterson had NO INTENTION of leaving lasting damage to the child and was merely punishing his child for something the child did. CLEARLY he did leave lasting damage, but the distinction that separates this from child abuse is the motivating factor. HE WENT OVERBOARD. That is an undeniable fact. BUT he could easily learn from it and never do it again. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

With that being said, if Peterson has CREDIBLE HISTORIC evidence painting a picture of himself having "gone overboard" NUMEROUS times, then yes I would consider that child abuse.


One last point that I want to make about Svartorm's original post and your response to it

Svartorm was merely pointing out that Peterson's hand could have dealt A LOT MORE damage if he was actually ABUSING the child WITH THE INTENT of leaving lasting damage. I however, do not think he was making a CONCENTRATED EFFORT to hurt his child.

Last edited 9/17/14 1:38PM server time by george112
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Post #126   9/17/14 1:36:52PM   

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NIKE has now suspended their sponsorship with Peterson, while the Vikings have told him he will be inactive until his legal proceedings are over.

That might mean the rest of the season or more depending on if this goes to trial.

Post #127   9/17/14 2:10:22PM   

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If Peterson avoids jail time and is allowed to play in the nfl next season, he will be a Dallas Cowboy.

We already know they have talked, Murray is doing too good for Dallas to be able to sign both him & Dez, AP is from TX, and Jerry Jones wont mind the extra attention

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Post #128   9/17/14 3:00:58PM   

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Hitting a 4 year old on the bare skin with a stick 14 times wasnt an effort to hurt the kid? What was he trying to do play the drums?

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Post #129   9/17/14 3:26:52PM   

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Hurt the kid on purpose, just for the hell of it?

No he wasn't doing that.


Not like he just went to a tree got a switch and just randomly started hitting the kid.

IMO what I think Peterson was trying to do, was associate the pain with a whooping to when the kid misbehaves. Basically put "fear in his heart" not to act up again. That is the whole point of corporal punishment. Obviously though it was taken too far for a 4 year old.

Get off your soapbox already dude, we already know he took it overboard this time. And if evidence proves he took it overboard previous times then shame on EVERYONE for letting it continue for so long because according to you this isn't the first time this guy has beat his kids with an inanimate object





And if the other allegations prove to be true, then take his kids away and don't allow him to see them. Better yet throw him in jail.


End of the fucking story.

Last edited 9/17/14 3:57PM server time by george112
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Post #130   9/17/14 3:50:29PM   

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Your analogy about when things come to light under more scrutiny doesn't really make sense as what has come to light is the exact same thing he is being crucified for now. That being child abuse. Are you implying that child abuse THEN wasn't as big of a deal as NOW?

I don't quite get what you are saying here. Do you deny that, what might have seemed to be an isolated event a year ago, no tends to establish a pattern?

I will use an analogy, maybe it works better this time.

A man is reported for exposing himself in public. He is investigated, and there is not sufficient evidence to charge the man. A year later, he is busted for exposing himself in public. Is it so odd that people would look back to that first, uncharged incident, as tending to show that he has a pattern of exposing himself?






Now back to your original question.

What is the difference between "going overboard with a switch" and child abuse. Ill tell you the distinction between the two that I THOUGHT was clearly obvious

Scenario 1 (Child Abuse)

IF Peterson was hitting his child with the switch for no apparent reason AND had the INTENTION of causing lasting damage THIS instance is child abuse. In layman's terms, if Adrian was making a sport/hobby out of hitting his children with switches, then yes absolutely child abuse.

Scenario 2 (Arguable Child Abuse)

IF Peterson had NO INTENTION of leaving lasting damage to the child and was merely punishing his child for something the child did. CLEARLY he did leave lasting damage, but the distinction that separates this from child abuse is the motivating factor. HE WENT OVERBOARD. That is an undeniable fact. BUT he could easily learn from it and never do it again. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

With that being said, if Peterson has CREDIBLE HISTORIC evidence painting a picture of himself having "gone overboard" NUMEROUS times, then yes I would consider that child abuse.


I disagree that motivation defines whether something is child abuse or not. There was a recent case in my neck of the woods of a man who tried to discipline his promiscuous daughter by raping her. His motivation was to show her that, if she acted like a slut, she would be treated like a slut, and to show her the error of her ways. That didn't make it any less of a case of child abuse.

That's extreme, but the idea holds true. Being motivated by a desire to act in the child's best interest doesn't make abusive conduct less abusive. The proof is in the pudding, not the intent. Child abuse does not require a mens rea, but rather looks at the effect on the child. AP can think he is doing the work of God, and it can still be child abuse. The act or failure to act needn't be intentional to be child abuse.




One last point that I want to make about Svartorm's original post and your response to it

Svartorm was merely pointing out that Peterson's hand could have dealt A LOT MORE damage if he was actually ABUSING the child WITH THE INTENT of leaving lasting damage. I however, do not think he was making a CONCENTRATED EFFORT to hurt his child.

I don't read Svar's comment that way. I think he was making the point that he finds it odd people would have a particular problem with a switch as AP could easily harm a child to a far greater extent with his bare hands. I agree that he could, and was merely pointing out that had he done so it wouldn't have been any better. I agree with Svar in that focusing on the use of a switch is silly.

And again, your focus on what AP's intentions were are ultimately immaterial. He could have been concentrating very hard on NOT hurting the child. But he did hurt the child with an act which is foreseeable to hurt the child.



Overall, I respect the right of a parent to discipline a child with corporal punishment. But any parent who does so should understand that they are assuming the risk that they will do too much damage sufficient to qualify as child abuse.

As stated earlier, I also have a huge problem with a someone in the position of AP being given the right to use corporal punishment. AP isn't around the kid enough to be able to say that the 4-year-old's best interests are served by corporal punioshment. That's a right we should reserve for parents who are the main person in charge of raising the child, not an absentee father around a couple weekends a year.

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Post #131   9/17/14 4:20:31PM   

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For the sake of size I won't quote you but I all address what I need to in the order from which you responded



According to reports and Shawn, last year was not an isolated incident. A child was allegedly beaten with an extension chord, then another turned up with a scar on his head, and now the switch being used. If it takes 3 independent incidents (as far as I've heard) to recognize a pattern, especially after kids are coming up with marks on their body, then I someone failed as a parent/CPS worker/intelligent person




The analogy you presented makes sense ONLY if there were to be 2 instances. From what I understand, this isn't the case.


It is also becoming clear that the term "child abuse" is being interpreted differently by many.

When a term's meaning, especially one as serious as child abuse becomes subjective, that can be really dangerous. Where is the line then?


You are correct in saying my speculation of AP's intentions are immaterial. But, I have given him the benefit of the doubt UNTIL ALL FACTS COME OUT. Holding an automatic bias because of media reports is ignorant. Just imagine if Shawn were the presiding judge over this case when it eventually when to trial.

I say (AGAIN)

Let the facts come out, investigate, then pass judgement

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Post #132   9/17/14 5:12:35PM   

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Posted by george112

For the sake of size I won't quote you but I all address what I need to in the order from which you responded



According to reports and Shawn, last year was not an isolated incident. A child was allegedly beaten with an extension chord, then another turned up with a scar on his head, and now the switch being used. If it takes 3 independent incidents (as far as I've heard) to recognize a pattern, especially after kids are coming up with marks on their body, then I someone failed as a parent/CPS worker/intelligent person




The analogy you presented makes sense ONLY if there were to be 2 instances. From what I understand, this isn't the case.


It is also becoming clear that the term "child abuse" is being interpreted differently by many.

When a term's meaning, especially one as serious as child abuse becomes subjective, that can be really dangerous. Where is the line then?


You are correct in saying my speculation of AP's intentions are immaterial. But, I have given him the benefit of the doubt UNTIL ALL FACTS COME OUT. Holding an automatic bias because of media reports is ignorant. Just imagine if Shawn were the presiding judge over this case when it eventually when to trial.

I say (AGAIN)

Let the facts come out, investigate, then pass judgement



As far as the definition of child abuse, I think the definition we should be using is the legal definition of the state of Texas where the alleged abuse occurred.


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"Abuse" includes the following acts or omissions by a person:

physical injury that results in substantial harm to the child, or the genuine threat of substantial harm from physical injury to the child . . . excluding . . . reasonable discipline by a parent . . . that does not expose the child to a substantial risk of harm

Substantial physical iharm--bodily harm or damage to a child for which a prudent person would conclude that the injury required professional medical attention.
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So what do you think based on that definition? The question of whether it was child abuse comes down to whether a prudent person would conclude that those wounds on his legs, buttocks, and scrotum required professional medical attention.

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Post #133   9/17/14 6:44:37PM   

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If you are asking me if those marks on the child required professional medical attention then I would say no

What would a professional medical doctor have done different then a mother with an ice pack and some hydrogen peroxide? Nothing IMO as far as treatment goes

They are cuts and bruises. Not deep lacerations the require stitches.


Not anyone on this forum would take themselves to the doctor for some cuts and bruising.



But look at the wording. "Substantial harm"

What constitutes "substantial" ? That was my whole point, its subjective.


BUT at the same time the punishment was not reasonable. I will concede that, no problem

Last edited 9/17/14 6:55PM server time by george112
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Post #134   9/17/14 6:51:40PM   

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Beating someone with a stick that leaves welts and cuts, yea that's not substantial in anyway

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Post #135   9/17/14 7:00:07PM   
 
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