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Which UFC Champ has faced stiffest compettition?

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Theoutlaw08

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I would say GSP has. Yeah Anderson has fought some tough guys and I think comes in at a close second.
I would say:
GSP
Anderson
BJ Penn (in his day)
any LWH fighter faces tough competition every championship fight

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Post #16   7/18/11 11:07:26AM   

bjj1605

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Posted by Kpro

Interesting read but I don't like the way the guy that did the article counted their opponent's independent records.

He counted their records as of today rather than their records prior to them fighting each other.

As an example Fujita beat a 24-5 Ken Shamrock at PRIDE 10 but this article's methods would've given Fujita a win over a lackluster 28-15 opponent because that is what Shammy is today. You shouldn't count a fighter's opponent declining after the fact in an independent records, it should be up until the point they fought each other.

Just my opinion



I totally agree. But even if you did it your way, which i think is better, numbers don't tell the whole story.

I agree with they way pookie laid out their competition. You also have to consider that Anderson has finished most of his opponents while GSP has had mostly decisions. Add the fact that Anderson has competed out of weight class while GSP has not. Add the fact that Anderson never lost his title.

Anderson Silva= #1 P4p

Post #17   7/18/11 11:29:32AM   

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GSP scores highest on both Fight Matrix and Elo scores.

Fight Matrix's All-Time Division Dominance (peak) Top 5:
1 Georges St. Pierre
2 Ken Shamrock
3 Anderson Silva
4 Fedor Emelianenko
5 Matt Hughes

Elo all-time strength-of-schedule scores:
1 B.J. Penn 1905
2 Georges St. Pierre 1894
3 Mark Hunt 1876
4 Josh Koscheck 1853
5 Kenny Florian 1846

Current MMA champs, in order of strength-of-schedule score (Elo scoring system):
1 Georges St. Pierre 1894
2 Cain Velasquez 1820
3 Frankie Edgar 1807
4 Anderson Silva 1805
5 Jon Jones 1723
6 Dominick Cruz 1699
7 Jose Aldo 1688

And following Kpro's post above, Elo scores are always a function of their opponents' rating at the moment they fought them.

Post #18   7/18/11 11:31:16AM   

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A couple of other random thoughts. First, the list above is current UFC champs, not across the whole sport. Second, the scores are for their entire careers, not just their UFC careers. Anderson Silva in particular had a lot of fights before coming to the UFC; he might have a higher strength-of-schedule score if you only used his UFC fights (and then again, he might not).



And looking at Penn's 1905 is making my brain hurt. That's like saying that Penn has fought Paulo Thiago, whose Elo score is currently 1905, 25 times in a row (Penn's career fight total).

Except it's not really like that at all, because if Penn won, Thiago's Elo score wouldn't be 1905 anymore. Penn would have to beat Chris Lytle, whose Elo score is 1898, and Karo Parysian, whose score is 1912. Again, he could only beat each of those guys once, because as soon as he did, their scores would be lower. So Penn would have to fight George Sotiropoulos, Rory MacDonald, and Jeremy Stephens too (1892, 1905, and 1917, respectively). 6 down, only 19 to go...

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Post #19   7/18/11 1:30:10PM   

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I am glad two of you mentioned Penn. I do not like the guy but most of his competition has been stellar opponents.

Here is a quick break down for easier comparison. I am not sure I am playing this game correctly btw but these are Penn's toughest competitions.

Din Thomas
Caol Uno
Matt Serra
Takanori Gomi
Hughes
Machida
GSP
Pulver
Sherk
Florain
Diego Sanchez
Frankie Edgar
Fitch

Keep in mind, Penn fought Caol Uno 2x, Hughes 3x, GSP 2x, Pulver 2x, and Edgar 2x.

I think Penn has this one in the books.

Post #20   7/18/11 1:58:33PM   

KungFuMaster

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It is difficult to compare GSP to Penn for one simple reason. GSP is so good which makes his competition seemingly not competition at all. While GSP runs through his competition, Penn has to literally put up his best game to earn a win.

You simply cannot compare GSP to any other mma fighter because GSP is decades ahead of the competition. What is considered tough competition by mma standards, GSP makes it look easy i.e. Fitch, Kos, Hughes, Alvez and the list goes on.

Post #21   7/18/11 2:15:01PM   

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Posted by KungFuMaster

It is difficult to compare GSP to Penn for one simple reason. GSP is so good which makes his competition seemingly not competition at all. While GSP runs through his competition, Penn has to literally put up his best game to earn a win.

You simply cannot compare GSP to any other mma fighter because GSP is decades ahead of the competition. What is considered tough competition by mma standards, GSP makes it look easy i.e. Fitch, Kos, Hughes, Alvez and the list goes on.



Anderson Silva has done the same thing but without an upset loss. I agree that GSP should top the list but to say nobody compares to him is just ridiculous.

I think comments like that are why a lot of people grow to hate fighters fans and then by extension the fighter. GSP, Anderson and Fedor have all gone through it, and Jon Jones is just getting his first taste of it now.

We love to build people up, then when they get too popular we try to tear them down.

Post #22   7/18/11 2:34:52PM   

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Posted by Pookie

Anderson, IMO has faced tougher competition than Gsp.

A list of their ten toughest opponents.

Vitor Belfort, Rich Franklin(2-0), Chael Sonnen, Demian Maia, Forrest Griffin, Chris Leben, Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt, Sakurai, Patrick Cote.

v.

Thiago Alves, Matt Hughes(2-1), Josh Koscheck(2-0), Sean Sherk, Bj Penn(2-0), Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Karo Parisyan, Matt Serra(1-1).


From my perspective,
Belfort > Alves (Both Inconsistent strikers, Belfort is by far more dangerous)
Franklin > Hughes (Lets be real, Hughes was on the decline)
Sonnen > Koscheck (Sonnen has worse Sub D, Kos has worse Str D, Sonnen's MMA wrestling is better)
Maia - Sherk (Niether was a threat stylistically, and both are one dimensional grapplers)
Forrest > BJ Penn (In the context that Forrest was a weight class up, and BJ was a weight class down. Bj without a doubt is better p4p, but weight is a crucial variable)
Leben > Hardy (He's Better. Then and Now)
Dan Henderson > Jon Fitch (He undisputedly was the better fighter at the time of their fight(s). And i'd argue that he still is.)
Nate Marquardt < Jake Shields (It can be argued either way. But i'll give the benefit of the doubt to Shields.)
Mach Sakurai > Karo Parisyan (Mach was the best WW in the world when he fought Anderson. Karo hadn't even peaked yet.)
Patrick Cote > Matt Serra (Niether fighter deserved the shot, but won it on TUF. Serra beat Gsp, Cote lost to Anderson.)


Now i know this is a subjective analysis(and indeed all analysis are), but i think its fairly ludicrous that people say GSP fought the better competition hands down. Personally i think he's had gimme fights, or fights where stylistically his opponents had no route of victory.



hey i can mix and match names and fighters to further my argument too. btw of their last 11 respective opponents, how many are still in the UFC? how many of their opponents have appeared to be on p4p lists? how many of them are still relevant in todays title picture?

GSP > Silva

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Post #23   7/18/11 3:03:47PM   

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Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Kpro

Interesting read but I don't like the way the guy that did the article counted their opponent's independent records.

He counted their records as of today rather than their records prior to them fighting each other.

As an example Fujita beat a 24-5 Ken Shamrock at PRIDE 10 but this article's methods would've given Fujita a win over a lackluster 28-15 opponent because that is what Shammy is today. You shouldn't count a fighter's opponent declining after the fact in an independent records, it should be up until the point they fought each other.

Just my opinion



I totally agree. But even if you did it your way, which i think is better, numbers don't tell the whole story.

I agree with they way pookie laid out their competition. You also have to consider that Anderson has finished most of his opponents while GSP has had mostly decisions. Add the fact that Anderson has competed out of weight class while GSP has not. Add the fact that Anderson never lost his title.

Anderson Silva= #1 P4p



a win is a win. finish or not, GSP's hand is raised. if the Yankees and Phillies have identical records, you dont say the Yankees are the better team because they hit more home runs, or Colts/Steelers because the Colts score more points, etc. Silva fighting a bum and a stylistically perfect opponent a weight class up doesnt mean much. hell Keith Jardine knocked out Griffin too.

Silva hasnt lost his title because he is facing weaker competition than any other long reigning title holder. he outstrikes inferior strikers...GSP beats his opponents at their own game (minus the Shields fight).

GSP > Silva

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Post #24   7/18/11 3:13:41PM   

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Posted by FlashyG


Posted by KungFuMaster

It is difficult to compare GSP to Penn for one simple reason. GSP is so good which makes his competition seemingly not competition at all. While GSP runs through his competition, Penn has to literally put up his best game to earn a win.

You simply cannot compare GSP to any other mma fighter because GSP is decades ahead of the competition. What is considered tough competition by mma standards, GSP makes it look easy i.e. Fitch, Kos, Hughes, Alvez and the list goes on.



Anderson Silva has done the same thing but without an upset loss. I agree that GSP should top the list but to say nobody compares to him is just ridiculous.

I think comments like that are why a lot of people grow to hate fighters fans and then by extension the fighter. GSP, Anderson and Fedor have all gone through it, and Jon Jones is just getting his first taste of it now.

We love to build people up, then when they get too popular we try to tear them down.



The word ridiculous is subjective just as opinions are btw...

I feel compel to lash out and pretend I am butt hurt but something tells me you have misread and misunderstood me.

You cannot compare GSP's level of competition to another fighter's competition because GSP has been too dominant even against his toughest opponents. While he steam-rolls over the very best, other fighters like Penn has to rise to the occasion when fighting the best competitions.

I do not think you understand me so I will plainly put it out there.

Some may say GSP has not faced that many tough competition. When you steam roll over opponents after opponents, is that considered tough competition? Those you have steam-rolled over may be tough competition to the rest of the division, but are they tough competition for you? .....so when discussing competition, that is the reason I say GSP cannot be compared to any other mma fighter. I'll let you digest that for a moment.

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Post #25   7/18/11 3:36:34PM   

bjj1605

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Posted by Bubbles


Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Kpro

Interesting read but I don't like the way the guy that did the article counted their opponent's independent records.

He counted their records as of today rather than their records prior to them fighting each other.

As an example Fujita beat a 24-5 Ken Shamrock at PRIDE 10 but this article's methods would've given Fujita a win over a lackluster 28-15 opponent because that is what Shammy is today. You shouldn't count a fighter's opponent declining after the fact in an independent records, it should be up until the point they fought each other.

Just my opinion



I totally agree. But even if you did it your way, which i think is better, numbers don't tell the whole story.

I agree with they way pookie laid out their competition. You also have to consider that Anderson has finished most of his opponents while GSP has had mostly decisions. Add the fact that Anderson has competed out of weight class while GSP has not. Add the fact that Anderson never lost his title.

Anderson Silva= #1 P4p



a win is a win. finish or not, GSP's hand is raised. if theone Yankees and Phillies have identical records, you dont say the Yankees are the better team because they hit more home runs, or Colts/Steelers because the Colts score more points, etc. Silva fighting a bum and a stylistically perfect opponent a weight class up doesnt mean much. hell Keith Jardine knocked out Griffin too.

Silva hasnt lost his title because he is facing weaker competition than any other long reigning title holder. he outstrikes inferior strikers...GSP beats his opponents at their own game (minus the Shields fight).

GSP > Silva



Truly one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard. There is no logic in your argument.

If GSP and Silva are similar in terms of title defenses, win streaks, and quality of opponents but Silva is finishing his fights while GSP is not... how does that not make Silva the better fighter?

You're trying to make the argument that a decision win is equal in quality to a finish. Now I would like to assume that you're an intelligent person, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't really believe that. I think, more likely, you hold an opinion.

Your opinion is that GSP is a above Anderson on the P4P list. I presented you with an argument that made your opinion wrong. Rather than accept that and change your opinion, you decided to temporary suspend your beliefs and conception of reality to make your opinion still valid.

You have to take the quality of the performance into account when looking at rankings. Anderson's performances have been higher quality because he's knocking people out and submitting them. End of story.

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Post #26   7/18/11 4:01:50PM   

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I understood you just fine.

You said -

Posted by KungFuMaster

You simply cannot compare GSP to any other mma fighter because GSP is decades ahead of the competition.



I'm wholeheartedly disagreeing with this statement right here, there is nobody in any sport that is SO much better than the competition that he cannot be compared to anyone else.

Besides your argument is flawed. The thread is about who faced the stiffest competition, not who did the best against stiff competition.

If anything arguing that GSP dominates his opponents more than BJ Penn or anyone else works against your claim. If he's dominating them that badly and Penn "has to rise to the occasion" then wouldn't that mean BJ is fighting significantly tougher opposition?

I'm a huge GSP fan and even I'm getting irritated with the way his fans talk about him.

Post #27   7/18/11 4:13:18PM   

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Posted by FlashyG

I'm a huge GSP fan and even I'm getting irritated with the way his fans talk about him.



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Post #28   7/18/11 4:14:52PM   

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Posted by bjj1605.

Your opinion is that GSP is a above Anderson on the P4P list. I presented you with an argument that made your opinion wrong. Rather than accept that and change your opinion, you decided to temporary suspend your beliefs and conception of reality to make your opinion still valid.



There is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion. In fact arguing that your opinion is right and someone elses is wrong is dangerously close to breaking a site rule.

No matter how strongly you feel about something like this your opinion is never fact.

Post #29   7/18/11 4:15:33PM   

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Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Pookie

Anderson, IMO has faced tougher competition than Gsp.

A list of their ten toughest opponents.

Vitor Belfort, Rich Franklin(2-0), Chael Sonnen, Demian Maia, Forrest Griffin, Chris Leben, Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt, Sakurai, Patrick Cote.

v.

Thiago Alves, Matt Hughes(2-1), Josh Koscheck(2-0), Sean Sherk, Bj Penn(2-0), Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Karo Parisyan, Matt Serra(1-1).


From my perspective,
Belfort > Alves (Both Inconsistent strikers, Belfort is by far more dangerous)
Franklin > Hughes (Lets be real, Hughes was on the decline)
Sonnen > Koscheck (Sonnen has worse Sub D, Kos has worse Str D, Sonnen's MMA wrestling is better)
Maia - Sherk (Niether was a threat stylistically, and both are one dimensional grapplers)
Forrest > BJ Penn (In the context that Forrest was a weight class up, and BJ was a weight class down. Bj without a doubt is better p4p, but weight is a crucial variable)
Leben > Hardy (He's Better. Then and Now)
Dan Henderson > Jon Fitch (He undisputedly was the better fighter at the time of their fight(s). And i'd argue that he still is.)
Nate Marquardt < Jake Shields (It can be argued either way. But i'll give the benefit of the doubt to Shields.)
Mach Sakurai > Karo Parisyan (Mach was the best WW in the world when he fought Anderson. Karo hadn't even peaked yet.)
Patrick Cote > Matt Serra (Niether fighter deserved the shot, but won it on TUF. Serra beat Gsp, Cote lost to Anderson.)


Now i know this is a subjective analysis(and indeed all analysis are), but i think its fairly ludicrous that people say GSP fought the better competition hands down. Personally i think he's had gimme fights, or fights where stylistically his opponents had no route of victory.



hey i can mix and match names and fighters to further my argument too. btw of their last 11 respective opponents, how many are still in the UFC? how many of their opponents have appeared to be on p4p lists? how many of them are still relevant in todays title picture?

GSP > Silva



Mix and match them all you'd like, it will still be in andersons favor. I just went by style similarities.

Last edited 7/18/11 8:13PM server time by Pookie
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Post #30   7/18/11 4:32:50PM   
 
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