Shinya Aoki: BJ Penn Didn't Lose; Wrestlers Have No Risk

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BigIP
9/11/10 4:51:29PM
"I am really a huge fan of BJ Penn, he is one of my favorite fighters. He lost by decision. When we look at martial arts in it's most extreme form, we need to win by submission or knockout. In that sense, he didn't lose. He lost that fight but he is still 'the man'. He is still my favorite fighter."

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bjj1605
9/11/10 5:57:22PM
The backlash against wrestlers seems to be really strong right now. All sorts of fighters and figures in MMA are speaking out against Lay and Pray and poor judging.

Hopefully some concrete rule changes take affect in the near future and this isn't just a lot of hot air.

What I'd like to see:

1. Knees allowed to a kneeling fighter. It's ok to outlaw them to a fighter who's on his back, but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to knee someone who's kneeling or has their hands posted on the mat. Change the rule to say "No kneeing a fighter with his back on the mat."

2. Education of Judges/Clarification of Criteria. Takedowns shouldn't be the highest scored part of a fight. They are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Submission attempts, sweeps, guard passes, and dominant positions are all more important to the "Effective Grappling" criteria than are takedowns.

3. More draws. If it isn't obvious who's winning or neither fighter has done enough in the round, score it 10-10.

4. Instead of or with my last point. Abolish the 10-9 round system. Either go to a 20 point system that allows for more flexibility or score the fight as a whole rather than by round.

5. Clarification of the "back of the head." This should follow the Mohawk rule, not the earphones rule.

In response to the specific article, BJ did lose that fight. Even according to how I wish fights were judged.
Taylor8766
9/11/10 6:44:03PM
Couldnt agree more
Franklinfan47
9/11/10 7:32:50PM
Interesting article. I was under the impression that Aoki looked down on the ufc and its fighters, cool to see he's a Penn fan. BJ vs Aoki would be epic!
tcunningham
9/11/10 7:36:01PM
yeah man i agree. whats with all the wrestling haters right now. if somebodies better than me at standup then i have to make a choice, either i stay standing with him and wind up getting out punched or knocked out or do i take him down and put him in my world which is on the ground. i did 10 yrs of wrestling, if i get a chance to take somebody down and smash on them you better believe i will. wrestling with good jits is an amazing combination because 99% of fights go to the ground and weather im on bottom or top i feel confident.
bootyclause
9/11/10 9:17:18PM
Aoki was to blame for one of the most boring fights ever on CBS, he sounds like a hypocrite.
jae_1833
9/12/10 12:01:35AM
BJJ...the only thing I have to say is that your Rule #2 should (IMO) grade a takedown equally to any one of those other effective grappling points....so a takedown to side control followed by a pass to mount would be worth more than just a sweep alone.....but otherwis those are absolutely outstanding!!!
RearNakedJoke
9/12/10 1:57:49AM

Posted by bootyclause

Aoki was to blame for one of the most boring fights ever on CBS, he sounds like a hypocrite.



If you had any understanding of Japanese MMA you would know that his goal was to break Melendez's fists by head butting them from sitting position. You just cant appreciate the technical beauty of the butt scoot.
seanfu
9/12/10 1:04:39PM

Posted by RearNakedJoke


Posted by bootyclause

Aoki was to blame for one of the most boring fights ever on CBS, he sounds like a hypocrite.



If you had any understanding of Japanese MMA you would know that his goal was to break Melendez's fists by head butting them from sitting position. You just cant appreciate the technical beauty of the butt scoot.



Maybe Aoki could learn a jab, or a strike of some kind, or wrestling, or Judo (oh wait), or maybe he shouldn't bitch about being bested by a better style.
CCPRIDE99
9/12/10 1:13:52PM
the only reason people bitch about wrestling is because their wrestling is shitty. like aokis in this case
seanfu
9/12/10 1:37:16PM

Posted by bjj1605

The backlash against wrestlers seems to be really strong right now. All sorts of fighters and figures in MMA are speaking out against Lay and Pray and poor judging.

Hopefully some concrete rule changes take affect in the near future and this isn't just a lot of hot air.

What I'd like to see:

1. Knees allowed to a kneeling fighter. It's ok to outlaw them to a fighter who's on his back, but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to knee someone who's kneeling or has their hands posted on the mat. Change the rule to say "No kneeing a fighter with his back on the mat."

2. Education of Judges/Clarification of Criteria. Takedowns shouldn't be the highest scored part of a fight. They are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Submission attempts, sweeps, guard passes, and dominant positions are all more important to the "Effective Grappling" criteria than are takedowns.

3. More draws. If it isn't obvious who's winning or neither fighter has done enough in the round, score it 10-10.

4. Instead of or with my last point. Abolish the 10-9 round system. Either go to a 20 point system that allows for more flexibility or score the fight as a whole rather than by round.

5. Clarification of the "back of the head." This should follow the Mohawk rule, not the earphones rule.

In response to the specific article, BJ did lose that fight. Even according to how I wish fights were judged.



It's this simple, 4 rounds, 4 chances for 10-9(rounds worth of scoring) plus 1 extra 10-9(rounds worth) for who won the overall fight. Also take control down to where it appropriately should be.

Wrestling shouln't win, damage and passing done with the wrestling is what should really be scored. And if you get LnPd under those rules it's your own damn fault.

Legstrikes to the head of someone down when you are both down helps.
BeeR
9/12/10 1:50:45PM
I was unaware that BJ vs Frankie 1, or 2 was a wrestling match....
I guess wrestling has evolved into boxing? in 50 minutes I saw about 45 seconds of wrestling....
cmill21
9/12/10 2:52:04PM
He's right lay and pray is boring. I ussually spend those fights talking or something.
Pskinner_mma314
9/12/10 3:43:51PM
I'm gonna take the Joe Rogan pov, I hate standups, if a guy is layin on you and you're not doin ****, too bad, your fault, but i don't think a wrestler should be given points or get points taken away for stalling. like someone else already said, if thats the case make it a 10-10 rd. i mean if hes gonna lay on top of you, not doin ****, and ur gonna lay on ur back, and not bother to find a way out of it, thats your fault, dont bitch. but even so, a fight is about winning and proving you're a winner. use the wrestling to make something of it, i hate tito but he lays on top of people for 3 rds when he wins, and when u look at the faces of each fighter, normally u can tell who won. so don't dock points for stalling, but don't give points for simply bein on top, i mean it IS mma, so jiu jitsu is based around bein on ur back so what makes the wrestling more worth givin points to? case in point silva vs sonnen. you can be on top the whole time, dont mean ur gonna win the fight.

and does anybody really know what "octagon control is?" i revived einstein and that man is stil confused.
cmill21
9/12/10 3:58:51PM
While it is true that this is your fault, it is still entertainment for the fans, they don't want to see lay n pray. I like a sick submission or brutal gnp as much as I like a nice stand up war(well almost). It is obivously a sport but pro sports are entertainment, that is why if people find a sport boring it gets no recognition. The UFC needs to remedy this before they get invaded by lay n pray wrestlers who drive the fans away. Like how boxing has done it with lack of finishes and excitement.
seanfu
9/12/10 5:50:59PM

Posted by cmill21

While it is true that this is your fault, it is still entertainment for the fans, they don't want to see lay n pray. I like a sick submission or brutal gnp as much as I like a nice stand up war(well almost). It is obivously a sport but pro sports are entertainment, that is why if people find a sport boring it gets no recognition. The UFC needs to remedy this before they get invaded by lay n pray wrestlers who drive the fans away. Like how boxing has done it with lack of finishes and excitement.



Does that mean the sport should be changed to accomidate the masses?

It's like in Judo the wrestlers were dominating so in response the Japanese changed the rules, no longer allowing people to lower their level in competition.

Also how in Judo the groundfighting was removed so it would be more exciting in the olympics. The ground aspect was a winning and Judo was evolving, to halt the style from change the ground was for the most part removed.
Pookie
9/12/10 9:33:39PM
The sport shouldnt be changed to accomodate the masses, but the sport should be changed if there is an obvious hole in how the sport is played/scored.

Oh and Bj lost. He definitly lost that fight by any objective standard.
bjj1605
9/12/10 9:40:28PM

Posted by jae_1833

BJJ...the only thing I have to say is that your Rule #2 should (IMO) grade a takedown equally to any one of those other effective grappling points....so a takedown to side control followed by a pass to mount would be worth more than just a sweep alone.....but otherwis those are absolutely outstanding!!!



Ya I guess I agree with that. I'm not saying takedowns should count for nothing. In Jiu Jitsu tournaments they are 2 points.

Sweeps are 2 points.

Side Control is 3 points.

Knee on Stomach is 2 points.

Mount and rear mount are both 4 points.

Full and strong submission attempts are 2 points. Weaker ones can be 1 point or used in the event of a tie (advantages).

This varies from tourney to tourney, but this is pretty well accepted.

I would even love to see the judges use a system like this to score the grappling. It would help them determine "Effective Grappling" and "Octagon Control." Then Striking and Aggression would be up to them. It takes some of the guess work out of it.
cmill21
9/13/10 1:35:51AM

Posted by seanfu



Does that mean the sport should be changed to accomidate the masses?

It's like in Judo the wrestlers were dominating so in response the Japanese changed the rules, no longer allowing people to lower their level in competition.

Also how in Judo the groundfighting was removed so it would be more exciting in the olympics. The ground aspect was a winning and Judo was evolving, to halt the style from change the ground was for the most part removed.



I think it should. While it shou;dn't be fundamentally changed barring specific tactics, it should be altered enough to give such uneventful ones problems. Like knees to the head, it will either make the wrestler more effective, or think twice since if they miss the shot the guy wont just stand up, he'll sprawl out and start raining them down.
seanfu
9/13/10 3:13:46PM

Posted by cmill21


Posted by seanfu



Does that mean the sport should be changed to accomidate the masses?

It's like in Judo the wrestlers were dominating so in response the Japanese changed the rules, no longer allowing people to lower their level in competition.

Also how in Judo the groundfighting was removed so it would be more exciting in the olympics. The ground aspect was a winning and Judo was evolving, to halt the style from change the ground was for the most part removed.



I think it should. While it shou;dn't be fundamentally changed barring specific tactics, it should be altered enough to give such uneventful ones problems. Like knees to the head, it will either make the wrestler more effective, or think twice since if they miss the shot the guy wont just stand up, he'll sprawl out and start raining them down.



It pretty much solves most of the stalemating problem. bar the 12 6 knee and allow the rest. Remove most of the standups, do the scoring like I suggested, allow knees on the ground, and you have quite a different sport.

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