Health Permitting, Brock vs. Cain Could Headline UFC 119

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sclasclemski
7/5/10 9:45:35PM
I wouldn't consider pulling off an arm triangle making Brock a one trick pony.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/5/10 9:48:20PM
That was as much of a gift from Carwin as was Lesnar's knee bar was a gift from himself to Mir. I highly doubt that anyone is going to be singing the praises of Lesnar's jits because of that submission.
jlock003
7/5/10 9:50:24PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by jlock003

Best I can tell Carwin is a much better striker. Cain has 1 KO...just 1 and it was a big right landing as Nog was coming over at the same time. As a matter of fact if you go back and watch the Kongo or the Rothwell match-ups Cain couldn't finish to save his life. I'll grant anybody who maintains that Cain is going to win that he is a beast when it comes to cardio and even footwork. His striking is better than Brock's but it's not better than Carwin's and it's definitely not as powerful as Carwin's. If Shane couldn't put him away Cain won't. Nobody in the mma world will stop a Lesnar takedown. Lesnar wins this fight by ground and pound.



When Carwin wasn't gassed he stuffed Lesnar with relative ease. Lesnar looked completely outclassed by Carwin. If Carwin had the cardio there is no way in hell Lesnar was going to win that fight. You and I must have watched two different fights.




Brock got rocked early. It's not like he had fresh legs charging in either. Carwin threw 60 punches in round one and they were hard shots. Nobody has ever thrown that many hard shots and not shot their wad. Carwin got over zealous and yes had he reserved some energy he probably would have put Lesnar away, but he didn't. Brock maintained, held Carwin off, and in the second round took him down passed his guard and subbed him. Who has Cain even fought who has tried to take him down? His best fight was the Nog fight and it was short, he didn't have his ground game tested, and he didn't get hit. Kongo rocked him over and over again. Not to mention Carwin is 265 solid and a D2 h2 champion? Cain is a solid wrestler but not the same caliber.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/5/10 9:54:47PM
Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.
jlock003
7/5/10 9:56:51PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.



Didn't say he was unaccomplished. D-1 national champ in Lesnar, D-2 national champ in Carwin, a JUCO championship is not on the same level. That was my point. Not that he can't wrestle, but come on you can't seriously think he is a better wrestler than Lesnar...especially with a 25 lb weight difference.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/5/10 9:58:01PM
For the record, Cain has knocked out Rothwell and Nogueira. Rothwell is one tough son of a bitch and VERY hard to finish. Nog had only been knocked out one other time in his career. I'd say he has some power. When you land 251 strikes against an accomplished striker like Congo, I'd say you're doing something right.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/5/10 10:03:13PM

Posted by jlock003


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.



Didn't say he was unaccomplished. D-1 national champ in Lesnar, D-2 national champ in Carwin, a JUCO championship is not on the same level. That was my point. Not that he can't wrestle, but come on you can't seriously think he is a better wrestler than Lesnar...especially with a 25 lb weight difference.



He doesn't need to be the BETTER wrestler, he just needs to stuff Lesnar's take downs and keep it on the feet. Lesnar looks HORRIBLE as an MMA fighter when his wrestling can't be used. Say what you want about him eating powerful shots from Carwin and fighting through it, the fact of the matter is that Carwin straight up embarrassed Lesnar before punching himself out. That was as clean a 10-8 round as I've ever seen. I can't even think of the last time a champ looked that horrible against a contender.

Cain needs to stop the take down, which he's more than capable of doing, and outclass Lesnar on the feet, which he's more than capable of doing. As for size, Couture was extremely effective against Lesnar and was much smaller than Cain. Say what you want about Couture being an amazing wrestler, the point is still there that if you can stop his take downs, Lesnar looks like what he, in all actuality, is and that's a beginner with not much of a skill-set.

I'm not bashing the guy, I'm just saying what others won't. He's very green for MMA. It sometimes gets lost because he's the HW champion.
jlock003
7/5/10 10:03:13PM
251 strikes against Kongo and can't put him out. Rothwell was far from out that was an extremely controversial stoppage, and I addressed the NOG KO earlier. Listen Cain is a beast! He is undeniably the #1 contender, and he has a great shot in the fight if he can stay on his feet and dance. IMO he will not stop the takedown, I don't think Carwin would have either had he not already tested Brock's chin. Brock in the words of Rany Couture is, "A big son-a-bitch." You can't teach size. Lesnar is far from a one trick poney, and I guarantee he will be in the gym working on his boxing next week. He improves with leaps and boundes each fight.
postman
7/5/10 10:06:14PM

Posted by jlock003


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.



Didn't say he was unaccomplished. D-1 national champ in Lesnar, D-2 national champ in Carwin, a JUCO championship is not on the same level. That was my point. Not that he can't wrestle, but come on you can't seriously think he is a better wrestler than Lesnar...especially with a 25 lb weight difference.



Wait Wait Wait Cain would have won a D1 title but he had to roll with Cole Conrad. Guess who couldn't take Cain down and had to win on ride time. I have heard people who know Wrestling very well that think Cain is actually a better wrestler then Brock.
lohmann
7/5/10 10:07:13PM

Posted by jlock003


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.



Didn't say he was unaccomplished. D-1 national champ in Lesnar, D-2 national champ in Carwin, a JUCO championship is not on the same level. That was my point. Not that he can't wrestle, but come on you can't seriously think he is a better wrestler than Lesnar...especially with a 25 lb weight difference.



Cole Konrad is a better wrestler than Brock Lesnar, and he won one of his national titles after winning a stupid decision over Cain Velasquez. Oh, and he lost to Velasquez on one occasion as well.

Velasquez was ranked #3 nationally at 285 lbs during one of the best periods in NCAA wrestling history.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/5/10 10:07:47PM
Lesnar can train for the next six lifetimes, he still will be FAR behind the strikers in the HW division. Lesnar does what all wrestlers do when they are getting outclassed, he immediately reverts back to a wrestler rather than a fighter. Also, I don't see why it matters that Cain was unable to finish Kongo, the point was that he completely outclassed one of the best pure strikers in the HW division on the feet. For that matter, the only man to have ever knocked out Kongo was Yvel.
sbulldavid
7/5/10 11:13:01PM
I was very impressed with Lesner's will to win against Carwin. I still think that fight showed to low caliber fighters with immense strength and decent wrestling skills. I don't know for a fact that Lesner is the stronger wrestler in a match with Velasquez, raw power maybe, but Cain seems like the the stronger wrestler during a fight, he's picking people up and slamming them, I only see Lesner bullrushing them. I expect Cain to out wrestle Lesner in the later rounds. His technique was terrible and I don't know how he will win a five round fight with an equal wrestler with better stand up and cardio. He still has them sledge hammers and he better hope he can get side mount on Cain.
MaxOne
7/6/10 2:56:40AM

Posted by postman


Posted by jlock003


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.



Didn't say he was unaccomplished. D-1 national champ in Lesnar, D-2 national champ in Carwin, a JUCO championship is not on the same level. That was my point. Not that he can't wrestle, but come on you can't seriously think he is a better wrestler than Lesnar...especially with a 25 lb weight difference.



Wait Wait Wait Cain would have won a D1 title but he had to roll with Cole Conrad. Guess who couldn't take Cain down and had to win on ride time. I have heard people who know Wrestling very well that think Cain is actually a better wrestler then Brock.




Word,
IMO Cain is the best heavy weight wrestler in the UFC maybe all of MMA (he's the best i'm aware of)

I am not convinced about his striking yet but it will be better than Brocks...and I don't know about Brock's gast tank...Brock seems to have great conditioning from what we've seen so far.



DCRage
7/6/10 8:26:17PM
With regards to Brock's health, looks like he's in not-too-bad shape coming out of 116. He did get a 45 day medical suspension with no contact for 30 days for cuts, but that's over in mid-August.
ncordless
7/6/10 9:08:11PM

Posted by postman


Posted by jlock003


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Uhh, he's not? Cain had a 110-10 record in HS. JUCO champ, two time all-american at ASU, 2x state champ, never lost a round in the UFC...I'd say he's pretty damn accomplished. Unless you're thinking of a different Cain Velasquez.



Didn't say he was unaccomplished. D-1 national champ in Lesnar, D-2 national champ in Carwin, a JUCO championship is not on the same level. That was my point. Not that he can't wrestle, but come on you can't seriously think he is a better wrestler than Lesnar...especially with a 25 lb weight difference.



Wait Wait Wait Cain would have won a D1 title but he had to roll with Cole Conrad. Guess who couldn't take Cain down and had to win on ride time. I have heard people who know Wrestling very well that think Cain is actually a better wrestler then Brock.



Exactly. Cain wrestled in college at a time when Cole Konrad and Steve Mocco (2008 HW Olympian) were battling it out. Either one would have probably beat Brock. He was the third best wrestler at a time when the top two were some of the best ever.
sclasclemski
7/6/10 9:10:44PM
I think at that high a level of wrestling it does more to negate each other in relation to mma...it will then come down to striking (Cain has the advantage I feel everyone agrees) and the clinch (which is where I think Brock's size can be used to bully Cain against the cage.
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